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Climate Change and Health Seminar: "Climate change, cities, and health: advancing solutions through systems-based research

July 29, 2021
  • 00:00<v ->Okay.</v>
  • 00:03It's time to get started. I'm Robert Dubrow.
  • 00:05I'm the faculty director of the
  • 00:07Yale Center on Climate Change and Health.
  • 00:09I know most of you, but maybe not everyone.
  • 00:12And it's a great pleasure today to introduce Jose Siri,
  • 00:18who is speaking to us from London.
  • 00:22And since 2019,
  • 00:24he's been the senior science lead for
  • 00:27Cities, Urbanization and Health for the Wellcome Trust's
  • 00:30Our planet, Our Health Programme.
  • 00:33Some of his previous positions have included
  • 00:36being a research fellow in Urban Health for the
  • 00:39UN University International Institute for Global Health.
  • 00:43He's been a research scholar for the
  • 00:45International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis,
  • 00:49and he got his PhD in Epidemiology with a concentration
  • 00:54in infectious disease epidemiology
  • 00:57from the University of Michigan.
  • 00:59So without further ado, I'll let Jose start his talk.
  • 01:06<v ->Great!</v>
  • 01:07Many thanks, Robert. Can you hear me? Thumbs up?
  • 01:11Great, great.
  • 01:13So it's great to be with you today.
  • 01:14Thanks again to Robert.
  • 01:15Thanks to the Yale Center on Climate Change and Health,
  • 01:19and thank you to you all for joining.
  • 01:22Today, I'm gonna talk about
  • 01:23the central role that cities play
  • 01:24in climate change and health and how systems-based research
  • 01:28can contribute to the solutions.
  • 01:29And I hope that you'll see or you'll agree with me
  • 01:32why we need this type of approach to compliment
  • 01:34traditional public health research.
  • 01:36So I want to start with a few concrete examples.
  • 01:41Just this past month,
  • 01:43we saw one of the most intense heat events in history
  • 01:46in the Western North American heat wave.
  • 01:49So starting in late June,
  • 01:50the Pacific Northwest and Western Canada
  • 01:52saw maximum temperatures up to 19 degrees Celsius
  • 01:55above normal, lasting through early July.
  • 01:59This is a map showing temperature anomalies on June 27th,
  • 02:03compared to the typical average for the same day
  • 02:05in different years.
  • 02:07The heat caused power outages,
  • 02:09it destroyed infrastructure,
  • 02:11it buckled roads across the region,
  • 02:13it spoiled crops, and damaged trees,
  • 02:16some places saw major water quality declines
  • 02:18because of fish kills,
  • 02:20and of course, it sparked wildfires,
  • 02:23which continue to be a major concern in the region.
  • 02:26Some places even saw serious flooding from snow melt.
  • 02:29So the drought, excuse me, the fire had a whole range,
  • 02:32excuse me, the heatwave,
  • 02:34had a whole range of complex consequences.
  • 02:37And we still don't know the full health impacts,
  • 02:40but there've been estimated 700 plus excess deaths so far.
  • 02:45There was a significant rise in hospitalizations,
  • 02:48and there was morbidity, not just from the heat,
  • 02:50but also from cascading events
  • 02:52like smoke inhalation from wildfires,
  • 02:55major mental health impacts, of course, for those effects.
  • 02:59In this context, impacts were much worse because this region
  • 03:02has a low uptake of air conditioning,
  • 03:04and it hadn't prepared in other ways for this level of heat.
  • 03:07So in other words, they're not adapted.
  • 03:10A preliminary attribution study has estimated
  • 03:12that this is about a one in 1,000 year event
  • 03:15in today's climate,
  • 03:16but that it would have been 150 times rarer
  • 03:19without human-induced climate change.
  • 03:21Under two degrees Celsius warming,
  • 03:23which is the minimum goal for the Paris Climate Agreement,
  • 03:26an event of this magnitude might happen
  • 03:28every five to 10 years.
  • 03:30Of course, we know that cities amplify heat waves
  • 03:32because of urban heat island effects.
  • 03:35Cities can be significantly hotter than surrounding areas,
  • 03:37especially at night.
  • 03:40In the left figure below,
  • 03:42you see how climate change might shift
  • 03:44the distribution of hot days.
  • 03:45Now, to the right.
  • 03:47In the right, you see the additional shifts
  • 03:49from urban heat islands.
  • 03:50And the message from from this figure is that
  • 03:52even small rises in average heat
  • 03:55can lead to large increases in extreme heat
  • 03:57at the leading edge of the distribution,
  • 03:59especially in cities where you have
  • 04:01the additional amplifying effects.
  • 04:04So let's cross the world to South Africa,
  • 04:07and three years earlier.
  • 04:09In 2018, after three consecutive years of low rainfall,
  • 04:13Cape Town had one of the worst water crises
  • 04:15ever recorded in the major city.
  • 04:18Early that year, officials estimated that the water system
  • 04:21would actually fail on a so-called "day zero" in April.
  • 04:25In other words, they projected that water levels
  • 04:26would be too low for any withdrawals
  • 04:28and the city would essentially have to shut the system down.
  • 04:32The chart you see here is a measure of water storage
  • 04:35for the city over the five proceeding years.
  • 04:37The black lines at the bottom
  • 04:39show have the minimum levels needed to allow withdrawals.
  • 04:42Now,
  • 04:43in this case, the city averted the crisis,
  • 04:46but not before it drew up security plans
  • 04:48to protect emergency water supplies.
  • 04:50Water was severely rationed.
  • 04:52Citizens were challenged and in some cases, even shamed,
  • 04:56into conserving and consumption was reduced
  • 04:58by more than half, which allowed the city to survive
  • 05:00until the rains came.
  • 05:03But even though the crisis was averted,
  • 05:05it sort of highlighted some of the severe inequities
  • 05:08and conflicts related to water in the city.
  • 05:11Now for example,
  • 05:11informal settlements in Cape Town
  • 05:13received less than 4% of the water supply,
  • 05:16even though they represent 20% of the population.
  • 05:19There were conflicts over the use of water for public health
  • 05:23versus for agricultural priorities.
  • 05:26And again,
  • 05:27this is a situation where the systems
  • 05:29that the city of Cape Town had put into place
  • 05:32just weren't designed for the conditions they encountered.
  • 05:34They weren't well adapted.
  • 05:37As for the Western American heat wave,
  • 05:40this was a quite rare event,
  • 05:42perhaps 0.7% per year in today's climate,
  • 05:46but made five and a half times more likely
  • 05:48because of human-induced climate change.
  • 05:51In an intermediate warming scenario,
  • 05:53the probability of a drought as bad as this or worse
  • 05:56could rise to 25% per year by the end of the century.
  • 06:00In a high warming scenario, it could rise to 80%.
  • 06:03So you would see this kind of drought most years,
  • 06:05essentially.
  • 06:08Again, cities amplified drought risks
  • 06:10because they concentrate massive amounts of people
  • 06:13in a small area,
  • 06:15they impact health directly,
  • 06:16but also through loss of livelihoods,
  • 06:19impacts on agriculture,
  • 06:20and sometimes even increased infectious disease risks.
  • 06:24So for example,
  • 06:25where hygiene suffers because of lack of water.
  • 06:28As with almost all climate risks,
  • 06:30the greatest impacts are on the poor and marginalized.
  • 06:35So coming back to the U.S. now,
  • 06:37one year earlier than that.
  • 06:38In 2017,
  • 06:40Hurricane Harvey dumped as much as five feet of water
  • 06:43on parts of Texas.
  • 06:45Over a hundred people died,
  • 06:4730,000 people were displaced,
  • 06:49and the storm caused $125 billion worth of damage.
  • 06:54Aside again, from the direct health impacts
  • 06:56and environmental exposures,
  • 06:58many, many people suffered mental trauma from the disaster
  • 07:01and from the losses of their homes or their livelihoods.
  • 07:04Again, impacts felt disproportionately on Black
  • 07:07and poor residents.
  • 07:09This was another extremely rare event,
  • 07:13perhaps one in 2,000 years in today's climate,
  • 07:15I've seen as low as one in 9,000 years.
  • 07:18But again, the rainfall totals were made more than
  • 07:20three times as likely, like human-induced climate change,
  • 07:23and the risk might increase to one in 100
  • 07:26by the end of the century.
  • 07:29In Houston itself, within the city,
  • 07:31modeling suggests that the urban environment
  • 07:33not only exacerbated the flooding,
  • 07:35because of impervious services and channeling the water,
  • 07:39but the urban environment actually increased local rainfall,
  • 07:42through interactions with meteorological system,
  • 07:44making the observed flooding,
  • 07:46the observed water levels 21 times more likely.
  • 07:51So,
  • 07:52it's not hard to find material unfortunately
  • 07:55for climate and health.
  • 07:57There are hundreds of other examples
  • 07:59that I could have used here.
  • 08:01All of these have connections to adaptation
  • 08:03because they speak to the need to plan for such impacts,
  • 08:07but they're also intimately linked to mitigation
  • 08:09because all of them were made much more likely
  • 08:11by human greenhouse gas emissions.
  • 08:14So these events really illustrate that climate change
  • 08:16is not just the concern for the future,
  • 08:18we're already seeing serious impacts today.
  • 08:21They show how cities mediate and modify
  • 08:24both overall climate impacts and the distribution of impacts
  • 08:27across society.
  • 08:29They show how much human-induced climate change
  • 08:32has already increased health risks,
  • 08:35and how these health risks may increase in the future.
  • 08:38And they tell us or they show us really,
  • 08:40the cities are critical part of solutions
  • 08:43for climate mitigation, adaptation, resilience.
  • 08:47So for the rest of my talk,
  • 08:48I'm gonna be discussing why cities are critical
  • 08:51for climate and health impacts and solutions,
  • 08:54what challenges we face in implementing
  • 08:56healthy climate action in cities and beyond,
  • 08:59why we should see many climate and health challenges
  • 09:01in cities as systems problems,
  • 09:04and how a systems-based research agenda can help catalyze
  • 09:08solutions.
  • 09:10So, first of all,
  • 09:11why are cities critical for climate and health impacts?
  • 09:15First of all, cities are where we mostly live.
  • 09:19And this is a fairly new situation.
  • 09:21Most of us tend to think of, for example,
  • 09:23the Industrial Revolution
  • 09:25as the time of massive urbanization as I do.
  • 09:28But the population of England in 1800
  • 09:30was maybe just 10 to 20% urban.
  • 09:33Urban population growth began to overtake rural
  • 09:36about half a century ago.
  • 09:38And according to the UN,
  • 09:39we became majority urban around 2007,
  • 09:42where you see these two curves cross.
  • 09:45Today, the UN estimates that we're about 55%,
  • 09:48and by 2050, two-thirds of us will live in cities.
  • 09:52Now it's worth mentioning that these numbers are quite
  • 09:54uncertain.
  • 09:55We actually can't measure who lives in city
  • 09:59and how many people live in city directly.
  • 10:01We've tended to use national definitions for urban,
  • 10:04whatever they are.
  • 10:06But in Norway or Sweden, a city with 200 people
  • 10:09is considered urban.
  • 10:10In Japan, you have to have 50,000 people
  • 10:12to be considered urban.
  • 10:14So cross country comparisons are quite difficult.
  • 10:17There have been a few efforts to apply
  • 10:19a single standard everywhere.
  • 10:21One effort using a construct called degree of urbanization,
  • 10:23puts the global urban share of the population
  • 10:27at about 75 to 80%.
  • 10:29Most of the increase coming from Asia and Africa.
  • 10:33There's some controversy over that definition.
  • 10:35There's other efforts, but whatever method you use,
  • 10:38the take home message is that we're mostly urban
  • 10:41and we'll be adding billions of more city dwellers
  • 10:43over the course of the century.
  • 10:45So,
  • 10:46given that we're mostly urban species today
  • 10:50from the standpoint of an ecologist,
  • 10:51cities are our dominant habitat
  • 10:53and they've profoundly affect our health.
  • 10:56And I like to think of the analogy of a fish tank.
  • 10:59So if you buy a fish tank,
  • 11:01you have to supply it with fresh or salt water,
  • 11:03depending on the kind of fish,
  • 11:04you need to add light and heat,
  • 11:06gravel, hiding places for the fish,
  • 11:09you have to regularly add food, you need a filter,
  • 11:12and so on and so forth.
  • 11:14If you imagine building an ideal habitat for a human being,
  • 11:18it probably wouldn't look too much like modern cities,
  • 11:21that some are better than others.
  • 11:23This list here is from Stephen Boyden's seminal work
  • 11:26on human ecology in Hong Kong.
  • 11:28And I love that this includes not just physical,
  • 11:31but psychosocial needs.
  • 11:33So, of course,
  • 11:34cities should supply clean air, water and food,
  • 11:37but it's equally important that they supply
  • 11:39emotional support, and variety, and a sense of purpose.
  • 11:44But again, the key is that cities, in many ways,
  • 11:47determine the health of the human species.
  • 11:51Virtually, every urban system affects health
  • 11:53in familiar ways,
  • 11:55but also along pathways that we may not be aware of,
  • 11:58or when we think about, excuse me.
  • 12:03Urban transport systems affect physical activity,
  • 12:07they affect the air pollution and exposure to air pollution,
  • 12:10mental health and opportunities for social interaction.
  • 12:15For women, in some contexts,
  • 12:16they also can seriously affect safety
  • 12:18or perceptions of safety.
  • 12:20Housing affects exposure to extreme temperatures,
  • 12:23infectious vectors, toxic pollutants,
  • 12:26but it can also influence a sense of belonging
  • 12:28and variety and daily experience.
  • 12:31Cultural systems have impacts on creativity, of course,
  • 12:35but also on loneliness,
  • 12:37and even on infectious disease transmission
  • 12:39as we've seen in lots of examples during COVID-19.
  • 12:43And I'm sure I've left relevant systems off this list.
  • 12:47I won't go through them all,
  • 12:48but I just really want to emphasize the point that cities,
  • 12:51through their complex integrated dynamic systems,
  • 12:54are among the main drivers of our health and wellbeing.
  • 12:58Now, importantly, for what we're discussing today,
  • 13:01cities affect virtually all the pathways along which
  • 13:03climate change affects health.
  • 13:06So you have direct impacts, for example, through storms,
  • 13:09drought, flooding, and heat.
  • 13:10And as we've seen,
  • 13:12these are all modified and sometimes amplified by cities
  • 13:15in urban systems.
  • 13:17You have indirect impacts,
  • 13:18might mediated through ecological systems.
  • 13:21These are also affected by cities.
  • 13:23So for example, cities drive deforestation,
  • 13:25increasing the likelihood of zoonotic disease transmission
  • 13:28when previously separated species come into contact.
  • 13:33They can cause food system disruptions when they grow over
  • 13:36or expand over productive agricultural land,
  • 13:38which is quite common.
  • 13:40Indirect impacts can also be mediated
  • 13:42through social processes like migration or trade.
  • 13:46And of course, cities are the primary driver
  • 13:48and destination of those processes as well.
  • 13:52Cities are also where most mitigation and adaptation actions
  • 13:56either are implemented or are the driving force behind it.
  • 14:03Perhaps most importantly,
  • 14:05cities emit about three-quarters of all greenhouse gases
  • 14:08from final energy use.
  • 14:10They use more than three quarters of all natural resources.
  • 14:13They produce about half of all the waste
  • 14:15that humanity produces.
  • 14:17And the graph on the left shows
  • 14:20global greenhouse gas emissions by economic sector.
  • 14:24Electricity and heat production, transportation, buildings,
  • 14:28and to some extent, industry,
  • 14:29are important sources of urban emissions
  • 14:32as you might imagine.
  • 14:33But even emissions that happen in rural
  • 14:36or undeveloped areas,
  • 14:38so for example, from agriculture or forestry,
  • 14:41are mostly the result of urban demand
  • 14:43for goods and services.
  • 14:46On the right,
  • 14:48the figure shows two common ways of accounting for emissions
  • 14:51and the bluer circle towards the top,
  • 14:54shows all emissions arising from goods and services produced
  • 14:57within the city,
  • 14:58whether they're consumed there or exported somewhere else.
  • 15:01That's the usual way that we measure emissions.
  • 15:04The greener circle shows all emissions
  • 15:06arising from goods and services consumed by the city,
  • 15:09wherever they're produced.
  • 15:11And in fact, especially in wealthy cities,
  • 15:14a high percentage of emissions are from imported goods
  • 15:17and services.
  • 15:18So, you buy your iPhone,
  • 15:19and you don't have any emissions from that,
  • 15:21but emissions are produced in China or somewhere else
  • 15:24or where that phone is produced.
  • 15:27We've done a lot less well at documenting
  • 15:29so-called consumption-based emissions.
  • 15:31For example, they're not generally included
  • 15:33in net-zero commitments,
  • 15:34which are pledges to reach a state of carbon neutrality
  • 15:38by a certain date.
  • 15:40There are efforts underway to change that,
  • 15:42led by groups like C40 Cities,
  • 15:44which is a network of the world's largest
  • 15:47and most influential cities.
  • 15:50So,
  • 15:51just as urban populations are growing,
  • 15:54so too our urban extents.
  • 15:56The amount of land that we devote to cities is projected
  • 15:59to increase dramatically over the century.
  • 16:03In fact, many analysts suggest
  • 16:06that we're more than double total urban land extents.
  • 16:10I believe Karen Seto, who I think is with us here,
  • 16:13has estimated that 60% of all of the urban infrastructure
  • 16:16that we're going to need has yet to be built.
  • 16:22Under some scenarios of fossil fuel development,
  • 16:25as you see on the right graph here,
  • 16:27models have projected that we could have as much as
  • 16:29six times as much urban land by the end of the century
  • 16:32as we have now.
  • 16:34More than two-thirds of the expansion in urban land
  • 16:37will happen in Africa and Asia.
  • 16:40And so,
  • 16:40you can imagine that this is a tremendous opportunity
  • 16:43to rethink how we design our fish tank,
  • 16:46how we make our cities healthier places,
  • 16:48both for people and for the planet.
  • 16:53So,
  • 16:54I've highlighted some troubling trends and statistics here,
  • 16:58but I really want to emphasize that
  • 16:59cities can be forces for good.
  • 17:02It's really important to remember that.
  • 17:03These two pictures are before and after shots of a place
  • 17:07in Seoul, South Korea,
  • 17:08called Chonggyecheon.
  • 17:10I'm positive, I'm butchering the pronunciation, but I try.
  • 17:15From the late 1950s to the mid-1970s,
  • 17:18this was a site of major industrialization
  • 17:21and really a perfect example of car dependency.
  • 17:24You can see in the upper picture that the site included
  • 17:27an elevated highway.
  • 17:29This was constructed over the bed of a former river.
  • 17:33In 2003, the then mayor of Seoul initiated a project
  • 17:37to remove the highway and restore the river.
  • 17:39It was highly controversial.
  • 17:41It was expected to lead to terrible congestion
  • 17:43and other consequences,
  • 17:45but actually it's become a showcase for the city.
  • 17:48The new watercourse, which you see in the lower picture,
  • 17:52led to locally cooler temperatures,
  • 17:55by some measures an increase in biodiversity,
  • 17:57less traffic congestion,
  • 17:59less pollution,
  • 18:00more tourism,
  • 18:02and cultural and economic revitalization.
  • 18:05And cities everywhere are taking actions like this,
  • 18:08and trying experiments like this.
  • 18:10Now, we saw a host of new experiments in public space
  • 18:13and infrastructure,
  • 18:14and working in mobility during COVID-19
  • 18:18in cities around the world.
  • 18:20Cities are also taking the lead on net-zero commitments,
  • 18:24and adaptation matters,
  • 18:25and on integrating all these activities
  • 18:27under one-governance structure.
  • 18:29So the city of Amsterdam, I believe,
  • 18:32is taking an explicit Doughnut Economics Approach
  • 18:34to their development, where they both mitigate
  • 18:39the excesses of growth,
  • 18:41but also provide all the social needs for the population.
  • 18:44So really important that we see cities not as problematic,
  • 18:48but as a source of solutions.
  • 18:51So now,
  • 18:53I want to talk a little bit about some of the challenges
  • 18:55to implementing healthy climate action in cities.
  • 18:59Many of these things that I'll talk about, of course,
  • 19:01apply to climate and health more broadly.
  • 19:05One challenge is that we just don't know where we're going
  • 19:08in terms of emissions pathways.
  • 19:10This figure shows annual growth,
  • 19:12global greenhouse gas emissions under different scenarios.
  • 19:15If we do nothing, we're up in this pink gray area,
  • 19:18and we're probably looking at
  • 19:19more than four degrees Celsius of warming,
  • 19:22which would be catastrophic.
  • 19:24But fortunately, we are already doing something,
  • 19:26and under current policies, we're probably in this tan space
  • 19:30in the middle and looking about three degrees of warming,
  • 19:33which would still be extremely serious.
  • 19:36Our current pledges and targets under the Paris Agreement,
  • 19:39get us down to about 2.4,
  • 19:41and if we were able to take the urgent massive action
  • 19:44that we need to take,
  • 19:45we might still be able to hold a warming to two degrees
  • 19:48or even 1.5.
  • 19:51But it's important to remember that all the climate impacts
  • 19:53that we're seeing today are just
  • 19:561.1 or 1.2 degrees of warming.
  • 19:59So even 1.5,
  • 20:00even if we meet the goals of the Paris Agreement,
  • 20:03we're looking at significantly more serious health impacts
  • 20:05and other impacts.
  • 20:08Now, of course, not knowing what to adapt to,
  • 20:11makes it quite difficult for cities to plan effectively.
  • 20:14It also makes it quite difficult and challenging
  • 20:16to project impacts.
  • 20:19So,
  • 20:21a second issue is that we don't know enough
  • 20:23about tipping points.
  • 20:26A tipping point is a set of conditions
  • 20:28where small changes can lead to abrupt shifts
  • 20:31in the state of a complex system.
  • 20:33Most often, we hear about climate change tipping points.
  • 20:37So for example,
  • 20:38there's a hypothesis that if the Greenland ice sheet melts
  • 20:41too quickly,
  • 20:42the influx of cold water could shut down
  • 20:44the circulation of the North Atlantic Ocean currents
  • 20:47and that would cause a very rapid shift in global climate.
  • 20:51So that's one climate tipping point.
  • 20:53There are many other potential climates tipping points,
  • 20:55but tipping points aren't limited to climate systems.
  • 20:58So you can have ecological tipping points,
  • 21:01and socio-economic tipping points as well.
  • 21:04So to give an example of an ecological tipping point,
  • 21:07drier conditions can cause less vegetation growth,
  • 21:10which leads to less evapotranspiration, even less rain,
  • 21:14and eventually leads to rapid desertification.
  • 21:17And there's evidence that that may have
  • 21:20already started happening in some areas.
  • 21:23In terms of socioeconomic tipping points,
  • 21:26sea-level rise, or sustained drought
  • 21:27can lead to sudden abandonment of settlements
  • 21:30and out-migration.
  • 21:31Imagine if the Cape Town drought
  • 21:33had gone on a couple more years.
  • 21:36Importantly, tipping points can also be positive.
  • 21:39We might see a sudden transition to renewable energy
  • 21:42when a critical mass and cheaper technology
  • 21:44leads to universal adaption.
  • 21:46We've seen that kind of rapid spread for mobile phones
  • 21:49and social media, for example.
  • 21:52But deep uncertainty about the likelihood, magnitude,
  • 21:55and timing of tipping points is another factor that
  • 21:57complicates city planning and even global climate planning
  • 22:01and policy discourse.
  • 22:05We don't have enough information
  • 22:07about the limits of adaptation or its effectiveness.
  • 22:11The figure here shows frequency of adverse impacts
  • 22:14from some event on the Y-axis
  • 22:17and intensity of adverse impacts on the X-axis.
  • 22:22So when frequency or intensity are very low,
  • 22:25when they're in the blue,
  • 22:26we don't worry about them.
  • 22:27They're acceptable risks.
  • 22:29Beyond some limit of acceptable risk,
  • 22:31which is shown here by the curve line at the lower left,
  • 22:35we adapt to the risk,
  • 22:36but there are limits to what's possible or feasible.
  • 22:39A limit to adaptation is a point at which an actor
  • 22:42can no longer secure valued objectives
  • 22:45from intolerable risk through adaptive action.
  • 22:49So the point at which your adaptive action can't secure
  • 22:52what you need to secure.
  • 22:54Above the limits of adaptation,
  • 22:56which is the second curve line in this figure,
  • 22:58to the upper right, risks are so severe
  • 23:00that we have to try to avoid them or mitigate them.
  • 23:03And you may have heard the phrase,
  • 23:05"Adapt to what you can't avoid, avoid what you can't adapt."
  • 23:10Barriers to adaptation can be physiological.
  • 23:14So for example, where heat and humidity go beyond
  • 23:17the human body's capacity to cool itself,
  • 23:19they can also be ecological, social,
  • 23:21cultural, physical infrastructural, or technological.
  • 23:25I'm sure there are other things that they can be.
  • 23:28So we need to have a much better understanding of the limits
  • 23:31to adaptation.
  • 23:34One second.
  • 23:37In terms of effectiveness,
  • 23:39we have lots of projections and sort of modeled estimates of
  • 23:43the effectiveness of potential actions,
  • 23:45but far fewer measurements of performance of adaptation
  • 23:49in reducing health or climate impacts or risks.
  • 23:52So,
  • 23:54as things become more and more implemented in the world,
  • 23:56we need evaluations of those projects.
  • 24:00Even when we know adaptation has been effective,
  • 24:02it's hard to separate out
  • 24:03the effects of personal behavioral change,
  • 24:06changing contextual factors, and specific interventions.
  • 24:09So we need a theory that helps us
  • 24:11disentangle those patterns.
  • 24:14Another challenge,
  • 24:15and this is a really important one,
  • 24:17from my perspective, is that existing research
  • 24:20doesn't reflect non-patterns of risk.
  • 24:23The figure above is from a preprint of a new review.
  • 24:26They used machine learning approaches
  • 24:28to evaluate about 16,000 climate and health studies.
  • 24:32And if you notice the scale, there is a log scale,
  • 24:34so keep that in mind.
  • 24:36Notice where the studies are concentrated.
  • 24:39The second figure below shows the locations of heat wave
  • 24:43and health research over close to half a century.
  • 24:46It's even a starker pattern,
  • 24:47and that's for one specific risk,
  • 24:49but you can do that for any different climate analysis.
  • 24:53In both cases, there's a significant lack of research
  • 24:55in countries and cities that will experience
  • 24:58serious climate and health impacts.
  • 25:01That includes Latin America, Africa,
  • 25:04the Middle East, Central Asia and Oceania.
  • 25:08And lots of research in the U.S. and Europe,
  • 25:11India and China, but much of the rest of the world
  • 25:13needs a lot more.
  • 25:16We still don't have nearly enough evidence
  • 25:18on how cities interact with modify and mediate
  • 25:20climate health relationships.
  • 25:22And because we haven't done the research,
  • 25:24we especially have limited information about
  • 25:26how these interactions are already affecting residents
  • 25:29of informal settlements, secondary cities,
  • 25:32cities in the Global South,
  • 25:34or how they'll affect in the future.
  • 25:37We don't have enough evidence on impacts
  • 25:38on marginalized groups or intersectional impacts,
  • 25:42even in high-income countries.
  • 25:44And we don't have enough evidence on impacts
  • 25:46mediated via complex indirect pathways,
  • 25:49which I'll talk a little bit more about later.
  • 25:53And of course we've seen the climate change
  • 25:55will push our infrastructure beyond the tolerances
  • 25:58that it was designed for.
  • 26:00That was something in several of the examples that I gave.
  • 26:03We need much more information on how our infrastructure
  • 26:06would respond to and what we do to fix it.
  • 26:11So another issue is that we have systematically incomplete
  • 26:15information on how to catalyze climate action.
  • 26:18And some of you may be familiar with this picture.
  • 26:21This picture represents a story from World War II.
  • 26:25Bombers were being regularly shot down
  • 26:27when they went out on raids,
  • 26:29and the U.S. Military was trying to figure out
  • 26:30what to do about it.
  • 26:32So when the bombers came back, they systematically mapped
  • 26:34the bullet holes in planes returning from combat,
  • 26:37and they proposed to add armor to the parts
  • 26:39that had the most holes.
  • 26:41But a statistician named Abraham Wald,
  • 26:44pointed out the solution was the exact opposite
  • 26:47because these were the planes that had survived.
  • 26:49So the military should armor the parts with no bullet holes,
  • 26:52because any plane that got hit in those places
  • 26:54didn't make it back.
  • 26:56This type of effect has been called survivorship bias,
  • 27:00and it's really common.
  • 27:02In the context of climate change,
  • 27:04we're beginning to have many collections of implemented
  • 27:06mitigation adaptation and co-benefits actions.
  • 27:09And often these collections try to pull out and identify
  • 27:12the salient shared features of success.
  • 27:15But we have far less information on interventions
  • 27:17that failed during implementation.
  • 27:20Almost no information at all on actions that were rejected
  • 27:23during ideation or planning.
  • 27:26Actions that were proved and never implemented.
  • 27:29In this context, survivorship bias can arise
  • 27:32to drawing conclusions only from successful climate action.
  • 27:36So we need to look at the failures.
  • 27:40Another challenge is that research policy and practice
  • 27:42tend to operate in silos.
  • 27:45In other words, people tend to engage, primarily,
  • 27:47with the concepts, people, problems and actions
  • 27:51that relate to their own specific area of work or interest.
  • 27:55Obviously, this challenges effective communication,
  • 27:57the challenges are believed to integrate
  • 27:59research policy and practice,
  • 28:01and it challenges the coherence of the actions
  • 28:04that we implement.
  • 28:06One thing that I and many others have observed is that
  • 28:09health has actually, often particularly,
  • 28:12separated from other sectors.
  • 28:14And maybe this is because of deference to the health sector,
  • 28:17maybe it has something to do with specialization,
  • 28:19maybe it's because health is life and death,
  • 28:21and so occupies a sort of a different place.
  • 28:24But the result is that in many cities,
  • 28:27just to give one example,
  • 28:28urban and transport planners have little or no contact
  • 28:31with the health department,
  • 28:32even though their actions have huge implications
  • 28:35for health and wellbeing, and obviously for climate.
  • 28:40Another challenge is that the pace of the required change
  • 28:43of what we have to do is getting faster and faster.
  • 28:47Every year that we delay action,
  • 28:49the climate challenge becomes greater.
  • 28:51As of 2019,
  • 28:53we would have had to cut emissions by 7.6% each year,
  • 28:56globally,
  • 28:57to meet the goals of the Paris Agreement.
  • 28:59And just for perspective, in 2020 with COVID-19,
  • 29:03we had just a 6.4% drop in emissions.
  • 29:07So that starts to give you a sense of the scale
  • 29:09of what we need to do every year.
  • 29:12The figure here shows how the pace and trajectory
  • 29:15of the needed emissions reductions changes
  • 29:16with the year when they begin.
  • 29:18So if they had started in 2000,
  • 29:21it would have been a much shallower
  • 29:22reduction that we would have had to have.
  • 29:24Now it's much deeper.
  • 29:26Not only do we have to move faster than ever,
  • 29:28but we have to do more than ever before.
  • 29:31So our goal can't be just to reduce emissions,
  • 29:34but we also have to meet all the other goals
  • 29:36to sustainable development.
  • 29:37We have to the end poverty and hunger,
  • 29:39provide education and equality,
  • 29:42and all of the other SDGs.
  • 29:48The figure on the left
  • 29:51just shows how health is intimately linked
  • 29:53with all of those goals.
  • 29:55And on the right,
  • 29:55we have countries plotted, excuse me,
  • 29:57on the right we have countries plotted with respect to their
  • 29:59ecological footprint per capita on the Y-axis,
  • 30:03and their human development index on the X-axis.
  • 30:05So the further to the right on this chart,
  • 30:08the better your standards of living.
  • 30:10The lower down, the more sustainable you are.
  • 30:14The shaded square at the bottom right
  • 30:15defines the space within which countries
  • 30:17have high human development
  • 30:19and live within the world's limits.
  • 30:22And you can see that there are very few countries
  • 30:24in that space, and we need to get everyone there
  • 30:26quite quickly.
  • 30:28So one last challenge is that we have lots of commitments,
  • 30:32but actual implementation lags far behind.
  • 30:35Here, we see cities and regions that have pledged
  • 30:37a net-zero emissions target,
  • 30:39and we also have the percentage of national populations
  • 30:41that are covered by these targets.
  • 30:43As of 2020, 126 countries and 51% of global emissions,
  • 30:47As of 2020, 126 countries and 51% of global emissions,
  • 30:50excuse me, of the global population had net-zero goals,
  • 30:53either formerly adopted, announced, or under consideration.
  • 30:57But pledging and implementing are far different things,
  • 31:00politically and practically.
  • 31:02So we need to keep an eye on this
  • 31:03and we need mechanisms for accountability.
  • 31:08So I want to shift gears here and talk about
  • 31:11the systemic nature of many urban challenges,
  • 31:13including those related to climate and health,
  • 31:15and why we should think of them as systems problems.
  • 31:19So, first of all, what do I mean by systems problems?
  • 31:23Systems problems arise from the interactions of networks
  • 31:26of interconnected elements or systems.
  • 31:29They tend to have various features,
  • 31:31detailed complexity, so they have lots of variables,
  • 31:34there's lots of things going on.
  • 31:36Dynamic complexity.
  • 31:38Cause and effect can be hard to define in these systems.
  • 31:41The outcomes of interventions aren't obvious.
  • 31:45They usually have multiple stakeholders acting on
  • 31:47incomplete information, often with conflicting motives.
  • 31:51They operate across multiple scales and sectors.
  • 31:54They're often resistant to change or sometimes
  • 31:56they'll change very suddenly and unexpectedly.
  • 31:59And they're usually related to other problems.
  • 32:04So the defining feature of systems problems is feedback,
  • 32:07which can be reinforcing or balancing.
  • 32:10Reinforcing feedbacks lead to exponential growth decline,
  • 32:14balancing feedbacks lead to stable values.
  • 32:17So remember the example of desertification before,
  • 32:20where less rain went to less vegetation,
  • 32:23went the less rain and so on,
  • 32:24that's a reinforcing feedback loop.
  • 32:27Your thermostat in your house operates
  • 32:29on the principle of balancing feedback.
  • 32:31When the gap between the room temperature
  • 32:34and your thermostat setting gets large,
  • 32:36it turns on the furnace and the room heats up.
  • 32:38When the gap becomes smaller,
  • 32:41it turns off the furnace so the temperature stays close
  • 32:43to the desired temperature.
  • 32:46So an important observation here is that you can have
  • 32:49a valid causal relationship between A and B,
  • 32:52perfectly valid, but still see all sorts of different
  • 32:54behavior in the real world,
  • 32:56depending on other connections in the system.
  • 32:59System behavior can be explained endogenously
  • 33:01in terms of feedbacks, delays, stocks, flows,
  • 33:04and parameters within the system.
  • 33:07That means that the way the system behaves
  • 33:09depends on the way the elements of the system are connected.
  • 33:13Simple system structures,
  • 33:15or combinations of feedback loops and delays,
  • 33:17give rise to characteristic patterns of behavior.
  • 33:22Sometimes, we see these called systems archetypes.
  • 33:26So seeing a certain pattern suggests a certain relationship
  • 33:29between the elements in a system.
  • 33:31So just to give a couple of examples,
  • 33:34the top example here,
  • 33:35you have a balancing feedback loop with a delay
  • 33:38and that gives dampening oscillations.
  • 33:40So if your thermostat is slow to react,
  • 33:43you'd see this kind of pattern.
  • 33:45The second example,
  • 33:46a reinforcing loop tied to a balancing loop
  • 33:50can give you a typical logistic growth curve.
  • 33:52So,
  • 33:54in the second diagram, we have population growth
  • 33:56with an ecological carrying capacity.
  • 33:58At low populations, the reinforcing loop dominates
  • 34:01and growth is exponential,
  • 34:02and at high populations, the balancing loop dominates,
  • 34:05so growth slows until the population equals
  • 34:08the carrying capacity.
  • 34:10There are many other well-established systems archetypes,
  • 34:13and of course, these relationships can be expressed
  • 34:15mathematically and modeled.
  • 34:19Simple systems structures combined into broader systems
  • 34:22in constant dynamic flux.
  • 34:25And this is where conventional approaches really struggle.
  • 34:28So when you have health needs and risk factors
  • 34:31and diseases and health resources that are all fluctuating
  • 34:34constantly over time,
  • 34:36it's hard to develop valid conclusions.
  • 34:41Earlier, I mentioned silos,
  • 34:42here's where they really become relevant.
  • 34:45So when dealing with a system virtually, everyone sees,
  • 34:47tends to see their own part,
  • 34:49the part most related to their own work, or their own ideas,
  • 34:52or their own community.
  • 34:54So climate scientists tend to look at climate variables,
  • 34:58city planners look at urban variables,
  • 35:00health professionals tend to look at
  • 35:01direct health relationships.
  • 35:03Now, of course,
  • 35:05there's intentional reaching across the boundaries.
  • 35:08Health scientists certainly look at the impacts of variables
  • 35:11in other parts of the system,
  • 35:13but it's rare that anyone is able to perceive
  • 35:15the whole system and the way things co-vary
  • 35:17and interact at the same time.
  • 35:20So an important guideline and systems thinking
  • 35:23is that you can't understand
  • 35:24the behavior of that whole system
  • 35:25by understanding the behavior of individual parts.
  • 35:29This is especially true in critical feedback loops,
  • 35:32especially if feedback loops that have delayed action
  • 35:36when they cross silo boundaries.
  • 35:38And under those circumstances,
  • 35:39it's very common for decision-makers to be surprised
  • 35:42by the counter-intuitive outcomes
  • 35:44or the failure of policies or interventions.
  • 35:49Now,
  • 35:50practitioners of systems analysis and systems thinking
  • 35:52have developed heuristics about when and how to intervene
  • 35:56in a system to have greatest impact.
  • 35:59These are so-called leverage points,
  • 36:01and some of them are more effective than others.
  • 36:03So the lowest value leverage points are parameters.
  • 36:06So for example, the rates of flow into or out of stocks.
  • 36:11Higher up on leverage scale are physical system structures
  • 36:15like buffers and material stocks and flows.
  • 36:18Even higher are control structures.
  • 36:21The structures that control of the working
  • 36:22in the system, feedback loops,
  • 36:24information flows and rules.
  • 36:27The highest leverage points are those that allow
  • 36:29the system structure or the goals to change,
  • 36:32so if you can add feedback loops or remove them.
  • 36:36And if you look at the very peak are interventions to change
  • 36:38the paradigm out of which systems arise.
  • 36:41In a real sense, that's what we're trying to do
  • 36:43in the context of climate change
  • 36:45and sustainable development.
  • 36:47We want to shift our shared understanding of the goal
  • 36:50of the human system, of humanity's place in the world.
  • 36:56In the meantime,
  • 36:58systems thinkers tell us
  • 37:00that most of what we do to solve problems
  • 37:03of the options that we look at,
  • 37:06tend to rely on low value leverage points,
  • 37:09and that we often, after we've identified them,
  • 37:11push them in the wrong direction.
  • 37:13So the systems approaches offer an opportunity
  • 37:15to identify higher quality actions.
  • 37:20Many urban climate and health challenges have features
  • 37:23or show behaviors that we associate with systems problems.
  • 37:26There are processes that we see replicated again and again
  • 37:30in cities around the world.
  • 37:32Urban sprawl, traffic congestion, gentrification,
  • 37:35slum formation, air pollution,
  • 37:37patterns of consumption growth.
  • 37:39All of these are processes that resist change,
  • 37:43that involve multiple stakeholders, and so on.
  • 37:46We also see persistent why they replicated social patterns
  • 37:50like prejudice and denialism.
  • 37:53And this should be no surprise.
  • 37:55Cities are the most complex systems
  • 37:57that human beings have ever created.
  • 37:59And all of this suggests that we need
  • 38:01a systems-based research agenda to address
  • 38:04these and other climate and health issues.
  • 38:08Now, what I mean by a systems-based research agenda
  • 38:10is not a replacement of traditional epidemiological
  • 38:12or public health approaches.
  • 38:14I think those are absolutely critical.
  • 38:17And we have to make sure that we don't disrupt
  • 38:20traditional science.
  • 38:21What I rather mean is a program of work
  • 38:23that complements traditional methods,
  • 38:26that frames them within a systems context,
  • 38:28and that draws on them to map complex problems,
  • 38:32and identify solutions.
  • 38:34A systems agenda would include components
  • 38:36that apply methods to understand complexity
  • 38:38and that engage broadly across disciplines,
  • 38:41and especially beyond science.
  • 38:44Now, this could be more or less expensive,
  • 38:46but I've mapped out some of the components
  • 38:48that I think are necessary.
  • 38:50And these include conceptual mapping,
  • 38:53systems-based case studies,
  • 38:55simulation modeling,
  • 38:56systemic analysis of governance planning and policy,
  • 38:59and transdisciplinary research.
  • 39:01And I'll talk about each of these just briefly.
  • 39:06At the most basic level,
  • 39:07concepts mapping can help organize information.
  • 39:10I know this doesn't look very organized to you,
  • 39:12but it actually helps a lot.
  • 39:15It allows for exploration and hypothesis generation.
  • 39:19This particular diagram is a causal process diagram
  • 39:22for droughts and mental health from a systematic review.
  • 39:25Now, the numbers that you see in brackets
  • 39:27are the number of papers meeting the search criteria.
  • 39:30So, you can see that this gives a sense of the state
  • 39:32of knowledge across the system,
  • 39:34and suggests where more research may be needed.
  • 39:37And then there's the area of the shaded in green here,
  • 39:41gives a sense of how this whole system diagram can be used
  • 39:43to identify subsystems of interest.
  • 39:46In this case, between drought, agricultural productivity,
  • 39:49workloads and the health of the economy.
  • 39:52Conceptual diagramming of this sort can also help identify
  • 39:55potential co-benefits or co-risks between climate actions.
  • 40:01On a more applied level,
  • 40:03place-based, systems-based case studies can help,
  • 40:06can also help with hypothesis generation
  • 40:08and problem diagnosis.
  • 40:10They can also play an important role in communication
  • 40:12and advocacy because they provide a common language
  • 40:16that cuts across silos,
  • 40:17the language of feedback and stocks and flows.
  • 40:21This is a case study series from a research project
  • 40:24that I led a few years ago at UNU, it was called,
  • 40:27Systems Thinking in Place-Based Methods for Healthier
  • 40:30Malaysian Cities, SCHEMA for short.
  • 40:32Don't ask me about the acronym.
  • 40:37The case studies were produced in
  • 40:38iterative cycles of engagement between a systems thinker,
  • 40:42who provided technical knowledge and encourage
  • 40:44thinking about dynamic processes,
  • 40:46and a set of urban stakeholders who supplied
  • 40:48local relevant knowledge,
  • 40:50and evaluated the options, the structural options
  • 40:53that were given to them by the system figure.
  • 40:56In the end,
  • 40:57the local stakeholders made all the decisions
  • 40:59about the final model.
  • 41:02This particular model explores how to assure safe food
  • 41:04in school cafeterias, but the series covered a wide range
  • 41:07of sustainability and health issues.
  • 41:10There's lots of different methodologies
  • 41:11for producing this kind of study
  • 41:12and it could be done quite easily,
  • 41:14so I think it's actually also a really useful tool
  • 41:16for education and systems they need.
  • 41:19On an even more applied level, of course,
  • 41:21you have simulation models.
  • 41:24Treat these with caution,
  • 41:25absolute prediction is difficult,
  • 41:27but they can provide useful insights to the system behavior,
  • 41:31the probable outcomes of different scenarios,
  • 41:33and potential unintended consequences.
  • 41:36Simulation models can also be used to design
  • 41:38and assess interventions,
  • 41:40which is especially important for interventions
  • 41:42with long time horizons.
  • 41:44This particular model is of climate population
  • 41:47and water supply.
  • 41:49The agents here,
  • 41:49which include households,
  • 41:51and the water utility manager,
  • 41:53make decisions based on their own attributes
  • 41:55and rules for behavior,
  • 41:56but also based on the current state of water system.
  • 42:00Agent-based models are especially useful
  • 42:02for looking at issues with distributional impacts,
  • 42:05but there are many other classes of simulation model.
  • 42:11Analysis of urban governance policy and planning
  • 42:14is another really crucial element
  • 42:15of the system-based agenda,
  • 42:18just because these are the information
  • 42:19and control structures for urban systems.
  • 42:22So these are potentially high leverage points.
  • 42:25This particular chart,
  • 42:28maps different modes of urban climate governance
  • 42:30against mitigation sectors.
  • 42:33So for example, for transport,
  • 42:35it distinguishes self-governing like procuring
  • 42:38energy-efficient vehicles for the government fleet,
  • 42:42governing through enabling like educational campaigns,
  • 42:46governing by provisions, such as
  • 42:48the provision of public transport,
  • 42:50and governing by regulation such as road user charges.
  • 42:56I don't want to go through this in detail,
  • 42:58but just to make the point that understanding
  • 42:59how each of these modes functions and practice,
  • 43:02and how they themselves are connected in feedback systems
  • 43:06and hierarchies.
  • 43:08It again offers opportunities for problem diagnosis,
  • 43:11hypothesis generation, and advocacy.
  • 43:14One of the things that this kind of mapping does
  • 43:16is it allows for documentation of the early stages
  • 43:19of policy and planning to reduce the survivorship bias
  • 43:22that I talked about earlier.
  • 43:25And finally,
  • 43:29transdisciplinary research is increasingly recognized
  • 43:32as an important modality for resolving complex
  • 43:35societal challenges.
  • 43:37This is an OECD report that I helped coordinate in 2020,
  • 43:41because recommendations for universities,
  • 43:43research funders, researchers,
  • 43:45and international organizations,
  • 43:47are looking to foster this kind of work.
  • 43:49Transdisciplinary research,
  • 43:50which is across the boundary between science and society.
  • 43:54That's the defining characteristic.
  • 43:56It involves non-stained stakeholders and co-design,
  • 43:59blending knowledge and creating new theory
  • 44:01in search of common goals.
  • 44:03It generally involves cycles of conceptualization,
  • 44:06implementation and evaluation.
  • 44:08It takes longer.
  • 44:10It's usually more difficult.
  • 44:11It's almost always more messy than traditional research,
  • 44:14but well-designed and this is where research can generate
  • 44:18scientific breakthroughs and local solutions
  • 44:20at the same time.
  • 44:22And that's something that's really important at this moment
  • 44:24when we have to act at the same time as we learn.
  • 44:28And just to give an example of transdisciplinary research,
  • 44:32through my program at Wellcome,
  • 44:33we fund a research partnership called RISE,
  • 44:36Revitalizing Informal Settlements and their Environments.
  • 44:39And this is a randomized control trial,
  • 44:41The complex, nature-based water and sanitation
  • 44:44and intervention in informal settlements
  • 44:46in Indonesia and Fiji.
  • 44:49The intervention itself has core features.
  • 44:51It's based on a nature-based approach to sanitation,
  • 44:54but ultimately an intervention is tailored
  • 44:56to each community.
  • 44:57Community stakeholders make the final design decisions.
  • 45:01RISE measures a wide range of health
  • 45:03and environmental outcomes,
  • 45:05and scientifically, its generated knowledge,
  • 45:08not only about the intervention,
  • 45:09but about community engagement,
  • 45:11and the capacity involving the informal settlements.
  • 45:15So for the study communities,
  • 45:16it's generated livelihoods, ownership and agency
  • 45:19beyond the benefits of the intervention.
  • 45:22And I think that we need much more of this type of research
  • 45:24to tackle the challenges of climate and health
  • 45:27in cities and beyond.
  • 45:29So that brings me to the end of my presentation.
  • 45:33I think that we're at a time when we need to harness
  • 45:36the brilliance and the exuberance of cities
  • 45:38to meet the needs of people in the planet.
  • 45:40And I think that systems thinking is critical
  • 45:42to that effort.
  • 45:43So thank you for listening.
  • 45:46I'm glad to take any questions.
  • 45:52<v ->Well, thank you, Jose.</v>
  • 45:53I could start with a question to get things started.
  • 45:58So you gave a number of examples of conceptual diagrams
  • 46:03of systems models that, you know, were hard,
  • 46:08obviously hard to digest deeply, you know,
  • 46:12given the timeframe, which, but my question is,
  • 46:17do you see a role for more quantitative systems models
  • 46:21in doing this kind of work?
  • 46:24<v ->Yeah, I absolutely do.</v>
  • 46:26And I, when I was talking about simulation modeling,
  • 46:29I was more talking about quantitative models.
  • 46:32I think that you do get into difficulties
  • 46:35when you try and get into that exact prediction.
  • 46:38We've seen, for example, with COVID-19,
  • 46:40how difficult it is to predict the exact behavior
  • 46:43of a system,
  • 46:44but we are actually quite good at predicting
  • 46:46the general shape.
  • 46:48So we may not be able to say that the people come now,
  • 46:50but we can say that there will be a peak.
  • 46:53So certainly, all sorts of climate and health questions
  • 46:58in cities and beyond are amenable
  • 47:00to that kind of quantitative model, yeah.
  • 47:04Rafael?
  • 47:06<v ->Yes.</v>
  • 47:06Thank you for a very insightful presentation, Jose.
  • 47:10And my question is about, first of all,
  • 47:13And my question is about, first of all,
  • 47:17realizing through your presentation
  • 47:20and the work that some of us are doing with food systems,
  • 47:23how it is important to not fear complexity,
  • 47:28that at the end of the day,
  • 47:30we have to deal with it
  • 47:33the way it is in reality on the one hand,
  • 47:36and we can come up with very wonderful
  • 47:39spaghetti-like diagrams,
  • 47:41like some of the ones you showed us to
  • 47:43all the innumerable factors and subsystems
  • 47:47that are interconnected,
  • 47:50explaining the problem that we have.
  • 47:52But then, I think for decision making, for policy making,
  • 47:57at the end of the day,
  • 48:00the secret sauce is in actually breaking down
  • 48:03those systems into subsystems,
  • 48:06that we can really understand in a reasonable way,
  • 48:09that we can really understand in a reasonable way,
  • 48:12and that we can actually come up with very specific policies
  • 48:17or interventions to address them
  • 48:19versus trying to do everything at the same time.
  • 48:22So,
  • 48:24what is your take with regards to not fearing complexity,
  • 48:25what is your take with regards to not fearing complexity,
  • 48:29but at the same time embracing simplicity to try to address
  • 48:34the humongous problems that we face?
  • 48:38<v ->Yeah.</v>
  • 48:39So first of all,
  • 48:40I think that you're right about spaghetti diagrams.
  • 48:43There's a diagram,
  • 48:44a famous diagram on obesity
  • 48:47and the factors that lead to obesity,
  • 48:48and called, I think the framework shift model,
  • 48:51which is so crazy that I decided I didn't want to show it.
  • 48:55And those sorts of diagrams actually,
  • 48:59I think can lead to paralysis.
  • 49:01So they're not useful in that sense,
  • 49:03but they are useful in constructing them
  • 49:06to think about the subsystems and to learn about the things
  • 49:08that were not, you know,
  • 49:10you didn't consider it to be related and actually are.
  • 49:12But I agree with you,
  • 49:13that pulling out the subsystems is really where you get more
  • 49:16interesting and applicable results.
  • 49:19I did some work with a colleague at ANU
  • 49:21that made the argument that low order systems models.
  • 49:24So five variables or less are really useful
  • 49:27for influencing policy makers if you can get them
  • 49:30to engage with the process.
  • 49:32I have another talk.
  • 49:35I remember where actually, I was at a meeting
  • 49:39and there was a policy maker speaking.
  • 49:40She had been, I think deputy director
  • 49:42of the city of Lens in France,
  • 49:44and someone asked her, you know,
  • 49:46how do you get policy makers to engage with
  • 49:48systems thinking?
  • 49:49And she said, don't ever use the word system.
  • 49:51Once you've used the word system, they've checked out.
  • 49:55So you do have to find ways to express these things in ways
  • 49:59that are more palatable and more understandable
  • 50:01for the audience.
  • 50:03But I think that that's part of the challenge.
  • 50:04And I don't think it's, I don't think,
  • 50:06I mean, I don't think it's daunting.
  • 50:08I think it's actually really exciting that there's this
  • 50:11whole area of space that maybe we haven't spent enough time
  • 50:14thinking about, but that we can,
  • 50:17especially sort of in mapping the government structures
  • 50:19and the barriers that come about
  • 50:20through the structure of governments.
  • 50:24<v ->Thank you.</v>
  • 50:36<v ->Are there any other questions?</v>
  • 50:38Feel free to speak up.
  • 50:40While you're thinking, I'll ask another question.
  • 50:44So,
  • 50:46I guess the question is,
  • 50:48what are the limitations of cities'
  • 50:53city-level policy in a context where you don't have a
  • 50:57coherent, you know, good national policy around
  • 51:02climate change or climate change and health?
  • 51:07<v ->That's a good question.</v>
  • 51:08I think that, well, for one thing,
  • 51:10it depends on the context.
  • 51:12There's some places where there will be more importance
  • 51:15to have coherence or not depending on the climatic factors,
  • 51:18depending on social factors.
  • 51:21I think that in general, cities are a good unit to use
  • 51:24because they can, you know,
  • 51:28they can take action at a large enough scale
  • 51:30to affect people, and they're close to people.
  • 51:33National policy makers often have less understanding
  • 51:36of the issues than city policy makers.
  • 51:38I think where you really do have to have coherence between
  • 51:40cities and countries is in finance,
  • 51:44because cities don't have the finance to be able to take
  • 51:47the kinds of actions that they need to take.
  • 51:49So for example,
  • 51:50there's a group called the Coalition for Urban Transitions,
  • 51:54which I believe is funded by Bloomberg.
  • 51:56It's sort of a partner to the C40 Cities program,
  • 52:00which advocates and provides evidence for governments
  • 52:03to fund climate action through cities.
  • 52:06But,
  • 52:07yeah, so in general, I think the cities are a good unit.
  • 52:11Obviously, it's much better if you can coordinate
  • 52:13city action with national action.
  • 52:15And that's something that we don't see enough of.
  • 52:17In the United States, you have huge disparities
  • 52:19between city climate action and national climate action,
  • 52:22but hopefully that's changing for the better.
  • 52:31So I see a question here. Why don't I read it out?
  • 52:35Based on your research,
  • 52:36do you see a potential role for environmental lawyers
  • 52:39in overcoming the silos you mentioned
  • 52:41and perhaps addressing the need for accountability
  • 52:43and meeting commitments pledged by national governments?
  • 52:47So, first of all, I see a role for everybody.
  • 52:50You know, we're having the silos that I mentioned,
  • 52:52so lawyers, architects, urban planners, engineers,
  • 52:58public policy makers, civil society, everybody has a role.
  • 53:01But specific to the role of law, that's actually,
  • 53:04that's something that we're thinking about
  • 53:06at Wellcome, right now,
  • 53:08because we're designing a whole new strategy
  • 53:10that includes climate and health
  • 53:12as one of the three fundamental areas that we'll fund
  • 53:14for the next several decades.
  • 53:17And one of the elements in there,
  • 53:19is how do we design funding for,
  • 53:22to produce the kind of research that lawyers
  • 53:24will be able to use in holding governments
  • 53:27and other players accountable.
  • 53:29So you'll have seen, or you may have seen that recently
  • 53:32there was a judgment in Holland against
  • 53:35the Shell oil company that said,
  • 53:38that basically, it was liable for not having a policy
  • 53:41that basically, it was liable for not having a policy
  • 53:44that did enough to curb emissions.
  • 53:47And we hope that we're gonna see many, many more judgments
  • 53:50like that.
  • 53:50Not just against the oil companies,
  • 53:52but really against all sorts of players
  • 53:55that are not taking appropriate climate action.
  • 53:57So I think the role of lawyers is actually quite critical
  • 54:00in all of this.
  • 54:13<v ->Okay. One last chance.</v>
  • 54:15Any other comments?
  • 54:17Feel free to either put it in the chat
  • 54:19or just speak right up.
  • 54:24Okay, well,
  • 54:25thank you very much, Jose, for a wonderful seminar,
  • 54:30it was very comprehensive and...
  • 54:35<v ->Thanks, Robert. It's great to be here.</v>
  • 54:37And if anyone has any questions,
  • 54:38I'm very glad to answer it so,
  • 54:42you know, just write me.
  • 54:44<v ->Okay.</v>
  • 54:45So, bye everyone.