Yale Global Initiative on Climate Change and Public Health Ethics: "Climate Change and Public Health Ethics: Our Duty to Displaced Global Populations"
March 31, 2022Dr. Laura Bothwell joined the Center on Climate Change and Health to discuss her work with displaced global populations.
February 21, 2022
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- 00:00<v ->Economic expansion. All sorts of areas</v>
- 00:04of human consumption and travel
- 00:07and resource use increasing very significantly.
- 00:12And this has had a significant effect
- 00:15on greenhouse gas emissions,
- 00:17particularly over the past 70 years.
- 00:20So I like this chart
- 00:22which shows global primary energy consumption since 1800.
- 00:28And you can see historically humans
- 00:30typically relied on traditional biogas, wood, cow dung,
- 00:34resources directly available for energy production
- 00:38and we've had this shift over the past century plus toward
- 00:43particularly fossil fuels.
- 00:46But what I think is interesting is that even as
- 00:49we've had rapid developments of technologies for green
- 00:54and sustainable energy use,
- 00:56we haven't seen the shift in our actual consumption relying
- 01:01on those as primary sources of energy.
- 01:03We're still very dependent on the early sources of energy
- 01:07from the industrial revolution with coal, oil, and then
- 01:12we've had the more recent development of natural gas.
- 01:16But we can see that we have a long way to go
- 01:18in terms of shifting toward energy that will be sustainable.
- 01:25So thinking about the scenario that has resulted
- 01:30from greenhouse gas consumption,
- 01:33climate change is contributing to desertification,
- 01:37sea level rise, resource scarcity, and increased frequency
- 01:41of extreme weather events particularly
- 01:43in low latitude areas forcing people from their homes.
- 01:47In 2020, weather related hazards such as storms
- 01:51and floods triggered 30.1 million displacement worldwide.
- 01:57The sea level is rising 12 millimeters a year
- 02:00in the western Pacific
- 02:01and has already submerged eight islands.
- 02:04By 2100 is estimated that 48 islands will be lost
- 02:08to the rising ocean.
- 02:10Countries such as Tuvalu, Kiribati and the Marshall Islands
- 02:13already experience ocean flooding that washes salt water
- 02:16onto agricultural lands
- 02:18and inundates drinking water sources.
- 02:20So it's quite likely that some islands
- 02:23will lose fresh water long before land is lost.
- 02:28Vulnerable communities are experiencing forced migration
- 02:32already throughout the world.
- 02:34So Pacific islands
- 02:35are having coastal erosion forcing residents
- 02:38to leave displacement in Asian countries is occurring
- 02:41due to severe storms.
- 02:44Climate impacts on rural livelihoods
- 02:46are forcing central agents to migrate
- 02:49to urban areas for survival.
- 02:51Less African coastal fishing villages are leaving
- 02:54due to the depletion of fish resources caused
- 02:57by ocean acidification as you see in this image here.
- 03:02Latin American droughts are forcing both internal
- 03:05and international migration.
- 03:09And the future of climate migration is looking
- 03:14to expand significantly.
- 03:15So the world bank estimates that three regions,
- 03:19Latin America, sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia
- 03:22will generate 143 million more climate migrants
- 03:26by the year 2050.
- 03:30This is a map
- 03:31from the International Organization for Migration.
- 03:35They have regional maps for all of the major regions
- 03:38of the world that are experiencing climate related migration
- 03:43as a result of climate change.
- 03:45So I'd like to highlight on this map
- 03:47a couple of the key causes.
- 03:50So you have some climate change hotspots
- 03:54and you have risk of desertification,
- 03:58lower precipitation in some areas leading to floods
- 04:02that are preventing reliable growing of crops
- 04:07as populations have in the past relied upon.
- 04:10We also have some areas with less precipitation,
- 04:15again, impacting food production.
- 04:19We have negative agricultural changes, ecosystem changes,
- 04:23reduced water availability, depletion of fisheries,
- 04:28melting of glaciers which is leading to sedimentation
- 04:32and affecting again, water and crop supplies,
- 04:35there's impacts on mountain regions, coral bleaching,
- 04:39and of course sea level rise concerns.
- 04:41So I think this is a nice way just in one region to see
- 04:46the numerous ways in which climate change
- 04:49is affecting migration patterns and disrupting pre-existing
- 04:55reliable structures of assessments.
- 04:59We've also seen a trend historically documented
- 05:02in the scientific literature and increasingly
- 05:05in the defense department regarding the real human toll
- 05:11of disrupting reliable sources of water and of the impact
- 05:17of drought on leading to higher likelihood of conflict
- 05:22and conflict ultimately leading
- 05:25to migration changes as well.
- 05:28So we have the sort of natural effects that are occurring
- 05:34with humans having limited resources.
- 05:38But then of course there's a psychological
- 05:40and social dynamics that complicate and multiply
- 05:45the existing natural dynamics as individuals
- 05:49are competing for scarce resources,
- 05:52which historically has never led to a positive outcome.
- 05:56So how can we think about all of this ethically?
- 06:00I think what is really challenging on topics such as this,
- 06:03that involve marginalized global populations
- 06:06that tend to be invisible in society such as ours
- 06:10in our typical power structures,
- 06:13we need to try to think very objectively in ethics.
- 06:17So there are a set of ways of doing this
- 06:22that emphasis been put forth that I think are essential
- 06:25as we can try to bypass biases and prejudices
- 06:30and our failure to recognize
- 06:31the innate human rights inequality of all individuals.
- 06:35So first being reasonable not doctrinaire,
- 06:38listening actively to the voices,
- 06:40particularly the voices of those who don't have
- 06:44a powerful position in the world community,
- 06:49letting the best reasons determine judgments
- 06:51versus economics politics or other competing interests,
- 06:56remaining common optimistic in the face of controversy,
- 07:00but at the same time,
- 07:01being realistic about the situations and choices
- 07:04that we face and understanding that we don't necessarily
- 07:08have silver bullets here.
- 07:09And this is a problem that is going to require some level
- 07:12of active engagement in serious work.
- 07:17And also considering critically the approaches
- 07:20of different cultures,
- 07:21understanding that solutions to our existing climate crisis,
- 07:27ideally should be coming out of an open
- 07:31and sincere engagement with different cultural,
- 07:35ethical responses and implications
- 07:38of those ethical responses.
- 07:40Because we have a certain environment
- 07:43in which the industrialized nations are operating
- 07:47under social and cultural assumptions of how
- 07:52we should engage with the planet and the economic system
- 07:56in which we engage with the planet.
- 07:58And there are certainly other approaches from other cultures
- 08:01that are much more sustainable
- 08:03and from an ethical perspective,
- 08:04we have an obligation to be open and to consider the variety
- 08:10of approaches that could potentially lead
- 08:12to a more sustainable and effective and fair future
- 08:16for all populations around the planet.
- 08:20So there are some key ethical principles primary
- 08:23to climate change and health.
- 08:26Number one, scientific integrity.
- 08:28And this is the concept of honesty and truth telling.
- 08:32And I think this is a critical point to emphasize
- 08:35because oftentimes particularly in climate discussions,
- 08:40there is misinformation a whole host
- 08:44of industries promoting alternative pseudoscience.
- 08:51But we also have a tendency to avoid the gravity
- 08:55of the problem and to try to not deal with it
- 09:01because of the severity of the challenges
- 09:05that humanity faces.
- 09:06So there's an ethical value of telling the truth
- 09:11and being explicit about the reality that we are facing
- 09:16and to ensure that what we are sharing is unbiased
- 09:19and reflecting, not the cultural objectives
- 09:23of one specific environment,
- 09:25but the actual scientific scenario that the entire world
- 09:29is facing right now.
- 09:31The next core principle that I think is crucial here
- 09:34and that has been typically put forth in the literature
- 09:37on climate change and public health ethics
- 09:39is the concept of justice.
- 09:41And this is that public health professionals
- 09:43should highlight differences
- 09:45that affect health status unfairly,
- 09:48and that we should emphasize basic human rights
- 09:50and define activities and legal conditions to ensure
- 09:54the achievement of basic right and a decent life
- 09:57for all people regardless of their location of birth.
- 10:03And the third principle is the concept ethically of welfare.
- 10:07And this is the principle
- 10:08that every person's happiness counts,
- 10:11regardless of their location.
- 10:14All individuals around the world have an equal human right
- 10:19for their happiness to be considered.
- 10:24So the challenge of climate migration ethics is that,
- 10:29many of the migrating populations most affected
- 10:31by rising sea levels, drought and extreme heat
- 10:36are also populations that have
- 10:38had smaller carbon footprints.
- 10:40So this is a real justice question.
- 10:45Looking at our own population here in the United States,
- 10:49US populations have not been severely displaced
- 10:52by rising sea levels, drought and heat.
- 10:55We've had over a million individuals in the past affected
- 11:00by these issues, but we've also had substantial resources
- 11:05and abilities to respond to this challenge.
- 11:09But looking at a global sage,
- 11:11we are not the populations that are experiencing the effects
- 11:16of greenhouse gas consumption at the levels that others are
- 11:20with regard to displacement on account of rising sea level,
- 11:24drought, heat, and other anomalous weather disasters.
- 11:29However, we've contributed much more carbon per capita
- 11:33than most of the populations that are now having to relocate
- 11:37due in part to the climate effects of US carbon consumption.
- 11:41And so this is a nice map looking at 2020
- 11:44internally displaced populations
- 11:47from the Internal Displacement Monitoring Center.
- 11:51And so you can see that this is a problem that we feel,
- 11:54but again, given the economic capacities
- 11:57that we have to rebound from climate anomalies,
- 12:01we're not feeling the effects as severely as individuals
- 12:06with less resources available to them.
- 12:09But also we're simply not feeling looking at the map,
- 12:13the effects as severely as some parts of the world.
- 12:17So it's a real problem of creating a problem without feeling
- 12:22and seeing the consequences of our actions directly
- 12:25in our day to day lives the extent that other individual
- 12:29on the planet Earth.
- 12:32So thinking about the ethical value of scientific integrity,
- 12:36700 million people are in the most vulnerable countries
- 12:39to climate change, including Afghanistan, Bangladesh,
- 12:42Barbados, Bhutan, Costa Rica, Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya,
- 12:47Kiribati, Madagascar, the Maldives, Nepal, the Philippines,
- 12:51Rwanda, Saint Lucia, Tanzania, Timor-Leste, Tuvalu,
- 12:56Vanuatu and Vietnam.
- 12:58While these countries are most at risk,
- 13:01they are among the lowest contributors of greenhouse gases
- 13:04that are primarily responsible
- 13:06for human cause climate change.
- 13:10So it's not just an ethical challenge, it's almost an irony,
- 13:13almost an ethical irony.
- 13:15But the individuals who are hardest hit by the effects
- 13:18of climate change are also those who are contributing least
- 13:23to the problem.
- 13:25These countries are also burdened with the double stress
- 13:29as they work to tackle
- 13:30internal climate related hazards, including displacement.
- 13:35They also serve as receiving countries
- 13:37to growing numbers of refugees.
- 13:43So again, thinking about the ethical value
- 13:45of scientific integrity as a way to frame our conversation
- 13:49and have an accurate understanding of the data upon
- 13:53which we can build an ethical argument
- 13:56for what should be done,
- 13:58the top three resource of greenhouse gas emissions
- 14:01are China, the United States and the European Union.
- 14:05And you can see in this chart,
- 14:08we're looking at tons per person of carbon consumption.
- 14:14And so the United States
- 14:16has on the highest per capita greenhouse gas emissions.
- 14:22And we also need to think about what is being covered
- 14:27in these types of measurements.
- 14:31Because this is looking at per capita consumption
- 14:35and we have typical dependence in the US on industries
- 14:42that are recorded typically in per capita consumption
- 14:45in the development of products, say in China
- 14:48that are then shipped to the United States for consumption.
- 14:53So we're also needing to be aware of the ways
- 14:56that other parts of the world are producing emissions
- 15:00in part to reflect our demand for consumption.
- 15:05So thinking about climate change ethics at a global scale,
- 15:10nations that contributed leads to climate change
- 15:13will be suffering the worst consequences.
- 15:16So this is a map that is adjusted on the top for billions
- 15:22of tons of carbon produced and the nations
- 15:27are inflated to show carbon production.
- 15:31And then on the bottom we're looking at
- 15:33the mortality per million in the population
- 15:36as a result of the effects of climate change.
- 15:39And you can see that particularly for sub-Saharan Africa,
- 15:45these are pretty severely disproportionate,
- 15:48so that they're facing the consequences of pre-assumption,
- 15:53that we are not facing the consequences of
- 15:56while at the same time,
- 15:58they're not causing the problem that they are dealing with.
- 16:03Similarly, you see this happening in South Asia.
- 16:07And if we are looking at the areas of the world
- 16:12that are going to be particularly vulnerable
- 16:16to sea level rise, a lot of that is in the Pacific region.
- 16:21And we also need to recognize that within countries,
- 16:24poor and marginalized populations are at greater risk,
- 16:29although we will all be vulnerable.
- 16:31So this is to say that what we've seen in the literature
- 16:36on climate change and health outcomes,
- 16:38is that impoverished individuals are more susceptible
- 16:44to keep related illness
- 16:47as a result of occupational exposure,
- 16:50more likely lower income individuals
- 16:53are going to be working outdoors
- 16:55than higher income individuals.
- 16:57And they're more likely to lose income as a result of days
- 17:01of not being able to work,
- 17:03but also working under stress conditions that are putting
- 17:06their bodies at higher risk of early morbidity and mortality
- 17:11due to worse elemental exposure.
- 17:15And then we also see individuals
- 17:16who are lower income having less access
- 17:19to cooling facilities,
- 17:21less access to personal air conditioning,
- 17:24and particularly in regions of the world but are low
- 17:30and middle income countries access to cooling facilities
- 17:34is not always readily available for all individuals
- 17:37who need it.
- 17:38And so this is also contributing
- 17:41to earlier morbidity and mortality.
- 17:45But at a global level we see this and within countries,
- 17:50individuals at the earlier and later ends
- 17:55of the life spectrum tend
- 17:56to be more vulnerable physiologically.
- 18:00Which is also to say that we all,
- 18:03as we age will be more vulnerable to the experiences
- 18:07of particularly heat exposures,
- 18:12something to consider as well.
- 18:15So the principle of justice is the next ethical concept
- 18:19that is really critical to thinking
- 18:21about the ethics of climate migration.
- 18:23So according to the principle of justice,
- 18:25populations that produce greenhouse gases
- 18:27are responsible for the consequences of our actions.
- 18:31This is justices at fairness and it's the same
- 18:34sort of justice principle that we see
- 18:36in our typical civil society laws where you break it
- 18:40and you buy it.
- 18:42You violate the policy of society, you use fee,
- 18:46you get a ticket.
- 18:48It's just a basic principle that we are responsible
- 18:51for the consequences of our own behaviors
- 18:54and our consumption.
- 18:55Climate migrants are without homes as a result
- 18:58of global carbon consumption.
- 19:01And so in a perfectly fair world,
- 19:02each population that is not itself displaced
- 19:06by climate change would be responsible
- 19:09for accommodating climate migrants in a ratio commensurate
- 19:12to that nation's responsibility for causing
- 19:15the climate refugee crisis.
- 19:17That is, nations would be held accountable
- 19:20for the human consequences
- 19:22of their greenhouse gas consumption.
- 19:24And the principle of fairness justifies policies
- 19:27in which producers of vast quantities
- 19:28of greenhouse gases welcome large numbers of refugees.
- 19:34Further the industrialized world
- 19:36has created climate changes displacing populations
- 19:40and forcing those individuals into migrant status.
- 19:43So the source of the problem is global and therefore,
- 19:47the response to this problem should equally be
- 19:50at a global level.
- 19:55We also have the ethical concept of human rights.
- 19:58So according to Article 25
- 20:00of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights,
- 20:04everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate
- 20:06for the health and wellbeing of him or herself
- 20:08and of his or her family, including food, clothing,
- 20:12housing, and medical care.
- 20:15All industrialized nations have agreed
- 20:17to the universal declaration of human rights
- 20:19and should endeavor therefore to achieve these rights
- 20:22for all global populations.
- 20:24We know that human rights are aspirational and some nations
- 20:28have accomplished them much more effectively than others,
- 20:32but nevertheless, all industrialized nations
- 20:35have agree to these objectives.
- 20:37And so, this is an important international statement
- 20:40that nations have made that we share
- 20:43these basic human values
- 20:45and we have an obligation regardless of national origins
- 20:50or geographic boundaries to support the human rights
- 20:54of individuals on other parts of the planet.
- 21:00Another critical ethical concept is humanitarianism.
- 21:06So climate migrants were displaced on account of processes
- 21:10and events far beyond their own individual control.
- 21:14For many generations, we have had humanitarian responses
- 21:18and infrastructures for aiding displaced persons
- 21:21who lost their homes to disasters or conflicts
- 21:24beyond their individual control.
- 21:27So a humanitarian ethic motivates efforts
- 21:30to help those individuals in dire need for survival.
- 21:39I'd also like to talk about Welfare and the Harm Principle
- 21:43as ethical guidelines for climate migration ethics.
- 21:49So John Stewart Mill has been a sort of touchstone thinker
- 21:54in public health ethics for many generations now.
- 21:59And according to Mill, the Harm Principle stipulates
- 22:04that we are all free to behave as we like
- 22:08within a society until our behaviors cause harm to others.
- 22:14Many emphasis will point out that the Harm Principle
- 22:16and itself is insufficient to account
- 22:19for the ethical obligations that we would like to achieve
- 22:22in public health because we have additional values
- 22:26of human rights, justice, equality and fairness
- 22:30in humanitarianism that we've already discussed.
- 22:33But the Harm Principle is another ethical support
- 22:39for thinking about climate migration
- 22:41in a way that is inclusive.
- 22:44And so according to the Harm Principle,
- 22:46everyone's happiness matters.
- 22:48The wellbeing and lives of displaced persons
- 22:50should therefore be considered.
- 22:53The wellbeing and lives of populations
- 22:55that produce large quantities of greenhouse gases
- 22:58should also be considered.
- 22:59However, according to the Harm Principle,
- 23:02the freedom of major polluters to continue causing damage
- 23:05to the planet should ethically be constrained
- 23:07to the extent that this behavior causes harm to others.
- 23:12Further the wellbeing of these populations
- 23:14must be considered in combination with other ethical demands
- 23:18that we have discussed.
- 23:20And I think that is an important interesting aside to make
- 23:23that while there is sound ethical justification
- 23:26for large greenhouse gas consumers to have an ethical duty
- 23:29to welcome climate refugees.
- 23:31Interestingly and completely independent
- 23:33of this ethical justification,
- 23:35nations that have produced large quantities
- 23:37of greenhouse gases stand to benefit economically
- 23:40from welcoming climate refugees on account
- 23:42of their aging domestic populations.
- 23:45Which to say that,
- 23:46even in this highly charged political climate
- 23:50where public health ethics intersect
- 23:54with the policy discussions,
- 23:56we have members of society who have taken stances
- 24:00of isolationism and closed border.
- 24:04Whereas as even conservative economists have pointed out
- 24:08that aging high income countries would stand to benefit
- 24:13from expanding their populations
- 24:17by welcoming international migrants to contribute
- 24:20to the economic capacity of those countries.
- 24:25So the is a sort of response to the utilitarian arguments
- 24:30that are typically made as a sort of ethical response
- 24:34from those who oppose welcoming strategies,
- 24:38which is to say that there's been an argument that bringing
- 24:42in individuals to a society takes jobs
- 24:48from that domestic population.
- 24:51And so there is an obligation that the society
- 24:55has to protect the jobs of their domestic populations
- 25:01so that they can find employment.
- 25:03This is sort of the argument that is made,
- 25:06that is not accounting for any of the social duties
- 25:11and obligations that we have to climate refugees
- 25:15as a result of our greenhouse gas consumption.
- 25:17But is an argument that's out there
- 25:19and I think it's something that should be engaged with.
- 25:22And interestingly from even utilitarian perspective,
- 25:27there is actually a good benefit to aging societies
- 25:34such as our own to bring in a broader work base
- 25:39to support our economy because we actually don't have
- 25:42the domestic workforce to supply the demand
- 25:46that we have for in employment even within
- 25:50the existing economy that we have.
- 25:53So, there's a really strong argument across all perspectives
- 26:00from the political spectrum for having
- 26:04a welcoming environment for the victim
- 26:08of global greenhouse gas consumption.
- 26:20So I'd like to close by asking the question then,
- 26:24given all of this information in all of these principles,
- 26:27what is our ethical duty to climate migrants?
- 26:32Major carbon-producing countries, such as the US,
- 26:36I would pause it,
- 26:37have an ethical obligation to address the relocation needs
- 26:40of large numbers of refugees who are migrating
- 26:44due to the effects of climate change.
- 26:47This is not something
- 26:48that has always been politically popular,
- 26:51and certainly if we look at even the acceptance that we have
- 26:56at our southern border of turning away today
- 26:59around 50% of applicants,
- 27:02many of these migrants are moving
- 27:05as a result of climate change.
- 27:07And I think we have an ethical obligation to be more open
- 27:13and to be more welcoming and to also face the consequences
- 27:19of our own historic benefits from exploiting
- 27:24the natural resources of the planet and also to realize
- 27:30the demands that those benefits place on other members
- 27:34of the global community and accommodating
- 27:38the consequences of our actions.
- 27:44So, I'm happy to take questions now.
- 27:54<v ->So I guess maybe should we have people put questions</v>
- 27:59into the chat Laura or in turns?
- 28:03<v ->Yeah, chat or raise hand?</v>
- 28:07<v ->Yeah, so I could start while people are thinking</v>
- 28:10of their questions.
- 28:14Do you know if there's any discussion internationally,
- 28:20like in the UN or otherwise about this issue and like,
- 28:26particularly, I know there's been discussion in the past
- 28:29of formally recognizing climate refugees
- 28:32as a class of refugees do you know if that's going anywhere?
- 28:38<v ->From what I've seen, there's progress being made,</v>
- 28:41the agencies that I've been consulting for this project
- 28:46have all been advocating for that shift.
- 28:50And I think that there's strong argument to be made.
- 28:56So there seems to be movement
- 28:59in this direction, Dr. Krispin?
- 29:09<v Instructor>Thank you so much, Laura.</v>
- 29:11You're making a strong case for why the US has an obligation
- 29:15to welcome so-called climate refugees and sort of building
- 29:20on what Rob just said, to my knowledge,
- 29:23there is no legal protection.
- 29:24The international law does not recognize climate refugees.
- 29:31So and my guess is,
- 29:34countries that are for acting quite reluctant
- 29:36including the United States to welcome any kind of refugees
- 29:40or political refugees, et cetera,
- 29:42I think there's gonna be a lot of pushback
- 29:44'cause if they add climate refugees to the list of refugees,
- 29:48all of a sudden they need to welcome because they've signed
- 29:52the agreement convention for refugees 1951.
- 29:55So I'm kind of trying to figure out
- 29:57how we can move forward with that.
- 30:01But another question I have is,
- 30:03a lot of these climate induced migrants
- 30:07are actually being dislocated internally.
- 30:10So they're internally displaced people.
- 30:12So whether they're in Somalia, whether they're in Sudan,
- 30:17most of them I guess is are not leaving the country
- 30:19because they can't, but they're leaving their home,
- 30:24they go into an urban setting looking for jobs.
- 30:27So it makes it even more complicated
- 30:30in terms of US obligation,
- 30:33should US be supporting the Somalian government.
- 30:36the Sudanese government,
- 30:37to take care of internally displaced people
- 30:40who are displaced because of
- 30:41as you were mentioning climate related issues,
- 30:44we have a responsibility that we have caused to some extent.
- 30:48So the internal displaced people is something
- 30:50that I'm thinking about in addition
- 30:52to international refugees across the border
- 30:56into another country.
- 30:57<v ->Thank you. So let's start with your second question first</v>
- 31:00and I completely agree.
- 31:02I think that all of the ethical arguments put forth
- 31:05with regard to bringing in migrants internationally
- 31:11across borders still applies for internal displacement
- 31:14so that we have an obligation to assist
- 31:17with compensating societies that are paying environmentally
- 31:24for the consequences of our consumption.
- 31:28I understand that there's an uphill road for this,
- 31:32but nevertheless from an ethical perspective,
- 31:36this is an obligation that I think arguably exists.
- 31:42And I think that
- 31:43the recent Global Youth Movement regarding advocacy
- 31:48for their human rights has had an impact on the way
- 31:52that policy makers have been responding to ethical claims
- 31:57so that they're seeing that there's a certain level
- 32:02of value based accountability
- 32:06that policy makers should have.
- 32:09And there have been reactions even from the private sector
- 32:12in trying to reduce consumption as a sort of pay it forward
- 32:17to future generations.
- 32:18And I think having a broader voice for global populations
- 32:22that are internally displaced and also that are having
- 32:26to leave their nation altogether,
- 32:28whether it be lost to sea level rise
- 32:31or other extreme weather events that are making
- 32:35their home environment uninhabitable.
- 32:40I think that there's a place
- 32:43for a broader ethical discussion that if
- 32:45that conversation is heard,
- 32:48could at least make some progress in the same way that we
- 32:51have seen advocacy for the rights of future generations.
- 32:56Because I think when we all hear this information
- 32:59is very clear that this is something that is wrong
- 33:02and there's an ethical obligation to do something.
- 33:07And so my hope is that further discussion of this
- 33:14at an international level,
- 33:16so these populations are less ignored,
- 33:18can help to advance that.
- 33:22Going back to your first question
- 33:24about recognizing individuals as refugees,
- 33:29absolutely, I think that the current thinking in this
- 33:35is to try to understand that at the time
- 33:38that our international agreement
- 33:40on refugee status concerned,
- 33:42we didn't have an awareness of climate change
- 33:46as human created source of displacement,
- 33:52although it is just as well as conflict
- 33:56in the discreet scenario.
- 33:58And so I think that this is something that
- 34:01we're seeing movement in thinking and I'm hoping
- 34:06that this can be better acknowledged and modernized
- 34:11because it is a reality of migration akin to any other form
- 34:18of human behavior, we need to do migration.
- 34:23But it is more complicated of course,
- 34:27because it's multinational and the source of the problem
- 34:31is more distant from the effect,
- 34:32but those who are fueling the effects or fueling the effects
- 34:35very rapidly and very acutely.
- 34:39And so the humanitarian ethic of responding to migrants,
- 34:44responding to refugees is really the same.
- 34:48And that's why I also think that some of the conversations
- 34:52that we have focusing on the language are stalling
- 34:59the actions that need to be taken right now regardless
- 35:03of the legal protections internationally.
- 35:06Because we also have refugee protections for populations
- 35:10in international law that according to the political will
- 35:14of certain environments,
- 35:16are not necessarily being fulfilled at a policy level.
- 35:21And so regardless of the legal environment and framework
- 35:27in which we're working,
- 35:28the same ethical duty applies
- 35:32to assisting these populations.
- 35:34So I'm hoping that the needle can be moved
- 35:37at a geopolitical level,
- 35:39but at the same time from an ethical perspective
- 35:41there's work to be done regardless of that.
- 35:46<v Instructor>Thank you so much.</v>
- 35:50<v ->See lots of hands, which is great.</v>
- 35:51I think Dr. Lason was next.
- 35:59<v Instructor>Hi Laura, thank you so much for this.</v>
- 36:01I think you made a really good case for the responsibility
- 36:04of mostly wealthy countries for taking in refugees
- 36:11because analyzing responsibility
- 36:14at the national level makes sense for a problem
- 36:17where the answer has to be worked out
- 36:21across national boundaries using national border policy
- 36:25and treaties that nations enter into and so on.
- 36:29But on the other hand,
- 36:30there's a list of about 100 companies that are responsible
- 36:35for more than 3/4 of all of the greenhouse gases
- 36:40in the atmosphere.
- 36:41And the vast majority of these countries exist now
- 36:45and existed back till about 1988.
- 36:49So you can actually say these firms
- 36:52that are there right now,
- 36:53a relatively small number of them are responsible
- 36:57for a huge amount of the burden.
- 37:01And I wonder if there aren't some kinds of problems
- 37:04like subsidizing displaced people internally
- 37:08to their countries that might be better analyzed
- 37:11at the firm level than at the nation state level.
- 37:17Does that make sense?
- 37:18<v ->Yeah. Thank you.</v>
- 37:19I think that's a great point because
- 37:21there are so many dynamics that go on in that conversation.
- 37:25There's sort of the passing the buck that can happen
- 37:29of companies transitioning that obligation
- 37:34toward governments which we've seen happen
- 37:36in so many scenarios, thinking of the financial crisis
- 37:39where those who created the problem
- 37:43as a result of their corporate behavior are shifting
- 37:48the clean up of that toward governments
- 37:52and that's certainly not fair.
- 37:56But there's also I think, the question of the role
- 37:59of governments then in corporate accountability.
- 38:02And this is something that we've seen not develop
- 38:08on this topic at all in the way that it could potentially
- 38:15with regard to having
- 38:16some sort of tax based system according
- 38:21to carbon production, carbon taxes that are then used
- 38:28to offset the human consequences of that production.
- 38:33There's a real missed opportunity I think there
- 38:38for using that resource.
- 38:41And then now we're seeing higher levels
- 38:44of internal corporate accountability as well,
- 38:46which I think is important.
- 38:48Certainly public health students go on to work sometimes
- 38:53within industry as corporate accountability monitors
- 39:00and industries are increasingly seeing
- 39:03that there is some economic personal benefit to be gained
- 39:09from having at least a green face.
- 39:13But I think at this point,
- 39:17we need to use all of the levers available to us
- 39:20and I think internal forms
- 39:22of corporate accountability are useful.
- 39:25They're certainly not sufficient
- 39:28because of the conflicting interest that those individuals
- 39:30have in speaking up.
- 39:33You can only get so far when you're paid by someone
- 39:36who you're also holding accountable.
- 39:39But that said, that's still a mechanism
- 39:42and an avenue through which companies stand to look better
- 39:46to the public by doing something about this issue.
- 39:50So that as you point out there are multiple levers and ways
- 39:54that these objectives could be accomplished.
- 39:59I think the next question was in the chat
- 40:04for the presentation.
- 40:05Have you done your research on the effects
- 40:07of climate migration on modern slavery?
- 40:11That's a great, great question.
- 40:14Not personally, but I think that this is an area
- 40:18that needs more research and we're also seeing
- 40:23the tragic reality that today in the world,
- 40:27there are more human slaves living than at any time
- 40:30in history and conditions of scarcity and demand for labor
- 40:39and resources are historically a pattern
- 40:44that we see continuing today in which the absence
- 40:48of having reliable sources of income force individuals
- 40:53who are desperate into scenarios that are putting them
- 40:59into slavery even more commonly most,
- 41:03or a large portion of slaves today are children and families
- 41:08who are unable to support themselves in the ways
- 41:11that they historically have been or more prone
- 41:14to sell their children into these contexts.
- 41:19So thank you.
- 41:20I really appreciate question because,
- 41:22I think there's so much
- 41:24from an ethical perspective that is not making it
- 41:28into our everyday political conversations
- 41:32about climate change and the human rights of all individuals
- 41:37and particularly those who are most vulnerable
- 41:41to exploitation in slavery need to be discussed more
- 41:45as a part of this and it certainly.
- 41:49I think, raises more attention of the severity
- 41:53of the challenge and the need for something clear
- 41:57to be done.
- 42:00The next question is, I don't see your full name, Dr. Rall.
- 42:08<v Instructor>Hi. Yes, Laura.</v>
- 42:09Thank you for the very important issues that you raised.
- 42:13I had two questions if I may.
- 42:16I think you brought this up yourself,
- 42:17most of the migrations that we've seen historically
- 42:20tend to happen into neighboring countries.
- 42:22So either from Sudan into Northern Africa,
- 42:25Bangladesh to India, and the same
- 42:26is expected from climate change as well.
- 42:30And I was just thinking that,
- 42:32are there other important mechanisms of operationalizing
- 42:36this obligation for address
- 42:39or rather than just taking in refugees into the countries?
- 42:43Like I can't imagine the number of people
- 42:46we're talking about.
- 42:47India expect millions from Bangladesh and millions
- 42:51in Africa to be moving that taking people in
- 42:54is perhaps less important than addressing development needs
- 42:57in those countries or helping neighboring countries
- 42:59that are expecting refugees to be able to deal
- 43:02with the crisis themselves.
- 43:03So that's one question, second question.
- 43:07In the case of climate versus war,
- 43:09whether harm is more direct.
- 43:11In the case of climate, arguably EU, the US, and China
- 43:16would want to of kind of arrangement where they share
- 43:21the obligation to take in refugees and so that
- 43:23they would want that to happen only under the grounds
- 43:25of some kind of international cooperation.
- 43:29Do you see the discussions moving in that direction?
- 43:31It's an easy way to pass the buck, as you said,
- 43:34but it is the case that the harm is much more distributed
- 43:36in the case of climate and how do we deal with that?
- 43:40Thanks. <v ->Thanks two excellent</v>
- 43:42really important and challenging questions.
- 43:45So I think you're absolutely right with regard
- 43:49to the second point as we've seen
- 43:53in our recent international climate agreements,
- 43:56our global major producers of greenhouse gases
- 44:01have been hesitant to participate and engage
- 44:05unless they know that their partners are also participating.
- 44:09So I think that in our future international meetings,
- 44:14we need to have further discussion of how all the agents
- 44:18are going to play some role in responsibility
- 44:24for addressing both of the points that you raised.
- 44:25One, welcoming individuals, but also on the other hand,
- 44:30helping nations that are having internal displacement
- 44:33to accommodate populations that are displaced.
- 44:39And of course, places like Bangladesh
- 44:41are going to be considerably losing land area
- 44:46to the rising sea levels as well.
- 44:47So we can anticipate pretty significant movement
- 44:52of populations that are going to need
- 44:55a multinational response.
- 44:59But I think you're absolutely right that there needs
- 45:01to be a geopolitical conversation in which
- 45:06there's a shared sense of responsibility being taken
- 45:11so that we're all doing our part just as we have
- 45:16with any moderately successful international agreement
- 45:21in the past, a sort of quid pro quo
- 45:24is a bit of an ethical understanding as well.
- 45:31<v Instructor>Thank you.</v> <v ->Thanks.</v>
- 45:39<v Instructor>Laura, I had one more point</v>
- 45:41that I wanted to raise.
- 45:42Which I think builds maybe on something that Nara Sumat
- 45:46was talking about, which is prevention.
- 45:50because as you know, when people migrate,
- 45:57it's very stressful, people lose their homes
- 46:00and their way of life.
- 46:01So even with the support of being taken in
- 46:04by another country or internally, that's insufficient
- 46:12in many ways.
- 46:14That it would be much better for people if they didn't have
- 46:16to migrate in the first place.
- 46:19So, I think that would involve support
- 46:25by the high emitting countries
- 46:29to the lower emitting countries whereas you pointed out
- 46:34the migration is mainly taking place
- 46:38for stronger climate change adaptation measures
- 46:41that would help keep people where they live
- 46:46and protecting them from effects of climate change.
- 46:53<v ->I completely agree.</v>
- 46:54I think there's such a broad literature
- 46:57on the mental health sequela of disaster response
- 47:02and particularly in scenarios where there's not
- 47:06as strong infrastructure for rebuilding
- 47:10and or accommodating right in scenarios
- 47:15where it's possible to accommodate.
- 47:18There are all sorts of cultural benefits
- 47:22of allowing individuals to remain intact social units.
- 47:28There's a huge mental and social disruption that occurs
- 47:33when families are separated and communities are split up
- 47:39and social networks are disrupted.
- 47:43We saw as a sort of parallel history here
- 47:46in the United States with a history
- 47:48of Native American populations being moved to reservations
- 47:52and then in the 1950s and 1960s,
- 47:55those reservations being incrementally reduced
- 47:59and those populations urbanized at the expense
- 48:03of social networks that were health sustaining
- 48:06and health promoting.
- 48:07And we've seen significant literature now linking
- 48:12that history to ongoing health problems.
- 48:18So that's just one scenario I think of a case where
- 48:22there's an argument to be made for supporting communities
- 48:27to thrive wherever possible,
- 48:31whenever possible as an approach as well.
- 48:34And then at the same time, adapting and being realistic
- 48:39about the movement needs of populations
- 48:44that are not going to be able to sustain themselves
- 48:49in each shifting environments.
- 48:55And the question is,
- 48:58what do you see as the role of contributions
- 49:00that academic community can make about climate refugees?
- 49:04So I think this is a great question to end on because
- 49:10there's been some discussion on is here
- 49:13at our own institution
- 49:16about accommodating displaced academics.
- 49:20And I think that there's a real responsibility,
- 49:26particularly for those of us who have the privilege
- 49:28of having these conversations and taking the time
- 49:32to research and think about the implications of the shifts
- 49:40that we're seeing at an international level,
- 49:45is a sort of virtue ethics.
- 49:48We talk about ethics at the political sphere
- 49:51and then we talk about ethics at an individual level.
- 49:55The classic or sense of virtue ethics,
- 49:58what are my individual character traits that I'm going
- 50:01to cultivate to live an ethically responsible life
- 50:06and living as members of an institution such as this that
- 50:11could really stand to benefit from
- 50:15and does benefit already from a very diverse
- 50:19and inclusive international faculty base.
- 50:23There's so much that we can learn from individuals who need
- 50:29a new place to be.
- 50:31And so I think that that's a great point that an institution
- 50:37has an ethical obligation to think about how
- 50:42we can be a part of a solution to the problem
- 50:46that we are also a part of a system that creates.
- 50:52We can't of course solve all of these problems
- 50:56as an institution, but we're not neutral.
- 50:58We don't exist in a vacuum,
- 51:02we're not separate from all of this discussion.
- 51:06We are a major employer and so we do have an opportunity
- 51:12to provide employment and interactions and engagement
- 51:19and collaborative opportunities with individuals
- 51:24who can really help to enrich our learning
- 51:29and also have some sort of compensation for the problems
- 51:37that societies such as the state community have created.
- 51:45<v Instructor>Well, thanks Laura</v>
- 51:46for an excellent presentation
- 51:50and for bringing up all of these important issues
- 51:53that we'll have to keep working on.
- 51:55<v ->Thank you, it's such a pleasure.</v>
- 51:58<v Instructor>Bye everyone.</v> <v ->Bye.</v>